As Delivered, Or As Delivered To The Customer?

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Fred Main from Tahoe Boat Company is shown above overseeing the delivery. Or? After I cleaned up the photo, is he christening the cobra? It would make sense to have such a photo. And if thats so. This was BEFORE she was in the water?

Yesterday we discussed the Siren on Cobra 001 and since its not on the build sheet, is it going to loose points in a show. First, what shows? And really? If the Siren looks bad ass. And is period correct? Keep reading cause I am gonna flop around like a fresh fish in the bilge. Herb Hall from Sierra Boats on Lake Tahoe , again said it perfectly.

Read about the name at the end of the story with another story from 2011

Copy Paste Quote “I agree with Greg W. I have been arguing for years, that these boats from a judging standard should be as delivered to the “customer” not necessarily the dealer. Period correct dealer accessories are accepted in the car judging world, but at some point the antique boat world decided that if it wasn’t on the hull card, it wasn’t acceptable. This has to change, it’s a stupid rule. I might add, only Chris Crafts are subject to this rule, since they have more documentation. Spotlight on the Gar Wood, no problem, get my point”.

Siren. Should the name be back on her?

Now to add to this, and because we are Woody Boater and the internet ( Brian Robinson ) provides we have a photo of the day she was delivered. And looky looky…. A SIREN! GAAAAAAAAA! And to worm hole this even further. Was it ordered and sat on a show room after being used to sell others and then sold with a Dealer Siren? And thus making it as delivered.

Stinky’s engine

FLIP FLOP! So this opens up a can of worms. Because I could say Stinky was ordered with an aluminum head. Its not on the build sheet, but there it was, and yes the engine must have been worked on, BUT, by then everyone knew those heads where crap. So? And to take the argument even further down the black hole of logic that really doesnt have an answer. Since the holes to the siren are in the original wood????? Are you messing with the spirit of the boat? Wood has a memory, it likes the holes in its deck.

No Siren on the prototype

And now since its become such a debate.. Okay not really a debate, I keep trying. CLICK DAMIT.. Anyway since its now a possible thing, will judges debate the Siren or no Siren? And now the flop. of the flip. Are you still following me? And why? Anyway. Here goes. This and the prototype are without doubt the most important 18 Cobras on the planet.

Should the Parade Handle stay? Part of her history?

They are history, and that history is the 001 which is a production thing, and thus, she was not produced with a siren. Its the way the factory wanted it made. The designer didnt want a Siren. And in the history of things. It should be as built in this case.

Restored to the film – Bob Kays Photo

This isn’t Thayer IV who’s history is later and thus restored to the movie not the build. For example. And if you are restoring your family boat, and were conceived on the engine box one warm starlit night. Breaking a part. YOU LEAVE THAT BROKEN PART!

Exhibit A

So? I don’t know anymore, I am so mixed up? For those of you that want to keep torturing yourself, here is an article Texx wrote on 001 back in 2011. Oh wait.. OH NO.. Look at the image of the prototype? The Lift rings.. Art? You reading?

We will solve this lift ring debate tomorrow. ONCE AND FOR ALL! STAY TUNED!

20 replies
  1. Jeff Funk
    Jeff Funk says:

    My two cents as previous head judge… as delivered to the original customer. Following that, they’re modifications.

    • Troy in ANE
      Troy in ANE says:

      Hi Jeff:

      Hope you are doing well!

      I am not clear on what you are actually saying here. There is photographic evidence that the siren was installed before “delivered to the original customer”, but it is not on the build sheet. As a judge would the siren be accepted, and would the owner need to produce the evidence at a show for it to be?

      Personally I have never had a boat judged. My boats are “user boats” and though I like to look at the information on the hull cards they are of little importance to me. (no disrespect to the judges or the knowledge they have.)

  2. Mike Green
    Mike Green says:

    It seems to me that all this is going to do is make the judges look bad no matter what they decide. We should probably ask the head judge and see what he would say before making a bunch of assumptions. If it was me and I was judging the boat the siren would not be a deduction but the light and the handle would be 1/2 a point for each. Pretty easy decision there. If Katz pays attention and paints the carbs and the fuel pump he should still get a first place. One of the things a judge will look and ask for is evidence in anyway they can get it to make the right decisions and you provided that. Most of the time the owner will provide all of that and more. They love to talk about there boats and they should because they are proud of them. But a lot of the time what happens is they tell us everything about the boat and pointing out the stuff that is wrong making our jobs easier which then becomes a deduction.

  3. Verne
    Verne says:

    The same debate comes up often in the old car hobby. For the most part, the decision has been made to restore a car to the way it left the assembly plant, rather than how it was delivered to the customer. After all, dealers would do anything to a car to make a sale. That included adding custom features like fender shirts, spotlights, even headers, etc. How can a car that looks like it ran through JC Whitney with a magnet compete in judging with one that appears as originally built?

  4. George Burgess
    George Burgess says:

    This is a Cobra story but not about judging. The Algonac Lions have a Pickerel Tournament around the 4th of July. In 1955 they had a raffle to give away an 18ft. Chris Craft Cobra or a cash prize of $2500. The winner from Marine City was Earl Smith — he took the $2500. Guess he couldn’t fish out of the Cobra!!!

  5. Tim Robinson
    Tim Robinson says:

    Like I said yesterday, if you have documentation, photo or written you have an argument. If you think you will get hit on something on your boat do your homework and present your case with the lead judge. Most of us judges that have been doing this for awhile have heard it all and we know when it is BS. I love the one where the owner told me his Hacker Craft was special ordered with the simulated deck planks wider than normal because the owner liked the look. Are you kidding me.

  6. Art
    Art says:

    Oh not only am I listening but I’m looking at the PROPER orientation of the lifting rings…..yea!!
    Btw they were designed that way because if the boat was lifted, NOT USING THE DESIGNED REAR LIFTING HARNESS, the rings could/would be BENT inword.

    • Uncle Mike K
      Uncle Mike K says:

      i just noticed that jim streets black cobra that the lift eyes are at a 45 degree angle!

      also his boat didnt sale at $110000 as the number one sold at $79200.

      i dont think jim streets would get many points as it was delivered without an engine, though he added one.

  7. Miles Kapper
    Miles Kapper says:

    I have never been a fan of judging. No reason to go into the article I wrote about this when it comes to judging Thompsons. It is amazing what you learn though when given the opportunity. I was asked one year to be a judge for the outboards. It turned into one of those classic situations. Two folks did fantastic immaculate restorations on their boats. Who gets top honors? Ultimately the guy who didn’t get first place didn’t get it because even though he did an amazing job repainting the Mercury on the transom – it was the “wrong” color. No brainer, right? So I thought. A few months later I was reading an article about Carl Kiekhaefer, the man behind Mercury. As it turned out he drove the marketing dept. crazy because he insisted the engines be offered in a variety of colors. He also encouraged dealers to paint engines any color the customer wanted. No dealer in their right mind would offer such a thing for obvious reasons. My point is, if Carl had been on the dock with me it is entirely possible the guy who came in second place would have taken home the first place trophy!

  8. Greg W
    Greg W says:

    My opinion remains aligned with Herb. Period correct accessories should suffer no deduction but should not get “extra” consideration. Judges are charged with adhering to the standards set by the governing body so I can only applaud anyone who is willing to put themselves “out there”. Chris Craft would do almost anything to accommodate a customers wishes. They would even work with the dealer in getting things done at their level if not practical during manufacturing. They would even go as far as to install canvas deck covering on a 27 ft custom triple and paint PEA green along with other hideous changes from normal. This boat is currently being restored to natural finish and otherwise traditional look. Wonder what the deduction will be for so many mods from the hull card? ACBS needs to take another look at this discriminating standard.

  9. Michael & Linda Stevens
    Michael & Linda Stevens says:

    Theree seems to be a lot of brain power being used up on this topic. I use my boat and would never enter it for judging. The boats I see at shows are far nicer than they ever were coming from the factory. 20 coats of polished varnished? HA!, these boats were designed to last 6 or 7 years and look good only till delivery. I’d bet they had 4 coats of something (we now call it varnish) and were far from perfect. That would actually be correct and not recieve any points deduction, but try winning a modern show that way.

  10. rivaguru
    rivaguru says:

    I agree whole heartedly with Herb Hall. The attention to the minutia and loss if sight of the big picture is incredible. This is why I have retired from Judging. “As delivered” is a rather vague criteria….. A boat may be allowed to have a different motor if “it was available”, but not allowed to have official Dealer add on items? That’s bonkers! Although it’s great fun to research and learn how these boats were built and delivered, we need to be judicious as to how we use and disseminate that knowledge.

  11. Herb Hall
    Herb Hall says:

    Let me add this thought to the debate. At Sierra, our approach to restoration is a preservationists. The reasoning is that we want to preserve history the beat we can. The original construction, layout and fittings on the boat is very important, but so is the history of the boat. We have a lot of boats that are original to lake Tahoe and some have been in the same family for generations. Those period, dealer installed accessories are part of the history of the boat and often have a story behind them. They don’t take away from the factory delivered boat and in many ways make for a more interesting boat.

  12. Brian Robinson
    Brian Robinson says:

    No argument here. But the burden of proof is on the owner. Maybe 1% of these boats history can be traced to when new and even then are there pictures? Documentation from the dealer? Almost never. One mans foggy recollection doesn’t hold much water.

    Herb, if I have a 1960 Coronado in the shop sold new at SBCO, where is the original invoice carbon copy showing how it was delivered to the customer? I’ve never seen one?

  13. Briant
    Briant says:

    Frankly Scarlett… I am so glad to own a custom boat with no build sheet etc etc…

    I will never understand why owning an old beautiful wood boat of any size, shape or brand has to be turned into a damn competition of who’s is better. My boat came with a siren. Your boat’s lifting rings point East and west whereas mine point North and South, so I am better, you painted that bit two micro shades off so you suck…bla bla bla.

    What’s next by the way… Participation Trophies??

    IMO, those Cobras, as with many many of my fellow enthusiasts’ boats are just beautiful and fun to admire and watch in action. Simple.

    So while many will argue over correct colors and screws and sirens and whatever, a few of us will someday be on our deathbeds instead thinking about all of the great times we were with the kids, family and friends motoring about in an old leaky boat, having a blast, with the spray in our faces, and the smiles on the kiddo’s mugs….

  14. Rivaguru
    Rivaguru says:

    Documenting Dealer Installed options that were installed on a boat some 40-60 years in the past, is an effort in madness. It may happen on occasion, but to penalize a boat and owner during Judging because an owner cannot “prove” exactly when a correct vintage optional component was installed, is folly and unfair.

    Judging, by definition, means weighing the evidence and rendering a judgment or opinion. Not, as we have all seen, pontificating about knowledge of boat manufacturers minutia.

  15. Carol Van Etten
    Carol Van Etten says:

    The late TYC Staff Commodore R.R. “Randy” Walker once told me that following WWII, when the first Racing Runabouts began to arrive at Tahoe Boat Company, the finish on these painted hulls was so unsatisfactory that Fred Main and crew improved them with what he called a Du-Lux process. I’d have to find the tape of our conversation to tell you more, but they were definitely not “as delivered” to TBCo, though they were “as delivered” to the customer. Points off for these hulls?

    • Ollon
      Ollon says:

      AAAAHHHHHH. I’m with you but currently both my boats are out of commission. I don’t care if they’re original or not at this point. I just want to go for a boat ride. And blow that siren just because.

  16. Jimmy
    Jimmy says:

    Think about it in another way. Some Cobras were ordered without engines so shouldn’t they have their engines removed and reverted to “as delivered” without an engine? But not every Cobra needs to be a 100 point boat all identical to each other.

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